KD: Hello, Julian.
J: ...
KD: I hope you're doing well.
J: ...
KD: Revelations of Love was an incredible read.
J: ...
KD: How would you compare it to your other work?
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: I would say it's probably your most renowned work.
Is that a fair assessment?
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: Haha. I didn't read all of Divine Love I'm sorry.
I poked around and read a few chapters but I haven't
gotten all the way through. I was going to finish it
yesterday, but yesterday was crochet night with my
buddies and also this natural disasters exam I
had to study for and I forgot haha.
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: But I did interview a medieval history & lit professor
and learned some stuff and whatnot about you. Also about
other anchorites. I learned a lot about Margery Kempe.
You know her, I think. She visited you in your cell.
J: ...
KD: What was she like? Anything interesting you talked about?
J: ...
KD: Buh buh buh. But yeah, if you were given information
about my life you'd probably do a better interview if I was
the statue and you were the...That's weird. What
I mean is that you seem really good at getting information.
Also writing what you know.
J: ...
KD: And for sure you'd make it beautiful. "Think
also wisely of the greatness of this word 'ever.'
For it has shewed an high knowing of love."? That's
beautiful.
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: Is it beautiful? I don't know if you wrote Divine Love
in the way people used to write. If you were going for style.
I mean, if the words are considered plain it would still
be really wonderful writing. Or...Or not beautiful but
...Something like...You calling yourself "a simple creature
unlettered" in your letters. Like that kind of beautiful.
J: ...
KD: If it's alright with you, can I ask what it was like living
in your cell? I don't want to ask if you enjoyed it or not
cuz you probably get that a lot. Maybe..um...What was it like
to be super free from distraction?
J: ...
KD: I'm sorry. That was over-assumptive. I guess in my head,
if I just had one room to live in and nothing else to do
but think and pray. And no one to really worry about. I think
I could make something beautiful for sure. Or the world would
change so much for me. It would look very different.
J: ...
KD: Or maybe...Is that wrong for me to think? What did you do
besides think and pray? I know people asked you for advice
through your window. And the photos of the cell
seem kind of sunny. And there was church.
J: ...
KD: Did people demand things from you?
J: ...
KD: Did you demand things from yourself? I would
imagine people get jealous of the idea of a simple life with
simple goals. Did you consider your goals simple?
J: ...
KD: I'm going to talk about the word "perfection" if
that's alright with you. Because I think about the
word when I read your work. Is "perfect" for you the early
Christian definition? Like, the closest distance you
can get to God. Am I right with that definition? Or do you
have a different one?
J: ...
KD: In the introduction of Divine Love there's a little bit
tying perfection to a "oneness with God." Would you say the
ascetic life has a lot to do with the pursuit of this?
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: In my research on anchorites I found this book called
"Scale of Perfection" by Walter Hilton, and it has a chapter
in it titled "How an Anchoress shall behave herself to
them that come to her." I don't know if you've ever read this,
but to sum it up, an anchoress essentially has to lend her
wisdom out. And that's how she's contributes. Would you say that
this is an accurate portrayal of your job?
J: ...
KD: Is that stressful? Do you have job satisfaction?
J: ...
KD: Sorry that was rude.
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: Do you know what the University of Iowa is?
J: ...
KD: I would say the University of Iowa makes me want to
live in a tiny cell for the rest of my life for sure.
J: ...
KD: Sometimes. Not all the time. Hahaha.
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: I have to do all these projects and be this specific kind
of person. And as I'm doing that I'm always thinking, "This
isn't perfect. This isn't what perfection feels like." And it
makes me so sad. Like, I think I want the perfect that's just
"being close to God" right now.
J: ...
KD: From my understanding, it didn't take you very long to
write the first draft of Divine Love, but you revised it a
couple times throughout your life. Are you satisfied with the
final draft?
J: ...
KD: Do you think like...Do you think job satisfaction or
work satisfaction or whatever you want to call it doesn't
mean much compared to erm...the "spiritual oneness" sort
of satisfaction? Or perfection. Or whatever you will.
J: ...
KD: Like, from what I've read about anchorites and religious
hermits, the biggest part of seclusion is to
eliminate the stuff that distracts you from acheiving some
sort of elevated state.
J: ...
KD: So I guess what I'm asking is what is the ultimate point
of life? Where does running around town and GPA slot into...
A discussion on distraction and the elevated state? How much
should...I guess I would say "being alone with your thoughts"...
Or no like, "being alone with something bigger than yourself"
get designated as a priority in the average human lifespan...
Of like 80 years or what have you? Does that make any sense?
J: ...
KD: I mean, why can't I just have your life? Right now?
J: ...
KD: Because I kind of want your life, if I'm being honest.
Maybe not certain parts of it because Christianity isn't
an interest of mine. But the parts concerning me not being so
easily distracted and the parts where there's actually something
there for me to follow. I'd actually like to focus for once. And I want
that focus to get rid of the parts of my identity that don't matter.
Because I know that the soul is easily wheathered, and I want
to experience that.
J: ...
KD: Ahhh sorry. That was derailing.
J: ...
KD: In...Bare with me...In another part of Divine Love's
introduction, you're described as someone who creates a
"surprised gladness" from the reader from the "simple perfection
where with she utters." Was this impression something you were
aiming for? Would you call Divine Love simple?
J: ...
KD: Simple in any definition.
J: ...
KD: Is there any kind of love to strive for that would make a
person feel guilty for wanting? Would you say acquiring
certain kinds of love requires a lifestyle like your own?
J: ...
KD: An isolated lifestyle, I mean. Or...Sorry. I mean a lifestyle
"free from distraction."
J: ...
KD: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you actually talk
about perfection in Divine Love. Not in those words, I mean.
Your language as it appears to me corralates more with words like "joy" and
"suffering" and definitions of certain kinds of love and so forth.
Was this shying away from certain words intentional?
J: ...
KD: Excuse me, not "shying away from." Just choosing not to
mention "perfect."
J: ...
KD: Ahh haha, I feel like I've really trapped us in this subject.
I hope I haven't been too limiting. Or too confusing. You're
probably wondering...Or like you've probably guessed that...I
don't really know. Maybe you aren't guessing much because I can't
find a good word for it myself.
J: ...
KD: What I mean is, like, I hope I don't come across as too
weirdly sad with all these questions. I want to be alive.
There's just parts about being alive, like being alone and
being useful, that I think I'm still confused about. And I
want to talk about it, especially with someone such as
yourself. I feel like you'd have really incredible insights
on these kinds of things.
J: ...
KD: Do you feel any kind of fullness when your alone?
J: ...
KD: Like, I bike around a bunch...and in the summertime
especially, when I go way off into the middle of nowhere,
I feel this amazing kind of weight in my blood. I feel
like those times are the only times I really get to
introduce myself uh...to myself. Hahaha. Everything about
me sort of balances out and I reach this sort of high
understanding, this sort of equilibrium. And I want that
feeling all the time, but I can't ever get back to it. I
always have to re-enter my life and suddenly it's gone.
J: ...
KD: I really like those moments because I suddenly feel
like my personality doesn't matter...I don't have to obsess
over it anymore...And biking around I feel like I'm constantly
learning something new. Like I'm constantly being told new
information I don't hear but can just...sort of inately
understand from something...uh...from something super big
that I actually can't understand at all, if that makes any
sense. And there's this great kind of potential energy, like
that super big something is about to come around the corner
and step into my life, and whatever it does to me I'll
be grateful.
J: ...
KD: Do you know what I'm talking about?
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm way out on a limb here.
J: ...
KD: So I'm going to go back to my list of questions
if that's okay.
J: ...
KD: Could you describe for me the intentionality of Divine
Love, beyond someone's surface-level assumptions of it being
a sort of instruction manual or just your retelling of
your time on your deathbed?
J: ...
KD: And these shrewings, the gifts granted to you, why were
they important for you to share? What do you want the reader
to take away from them?
J: ...
KD: Did you like sharing those moments with people?
J: ...
KD: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get a sort of excitement
from your words. Another line I loved: "Signifying thus:
See! I am God: see! I am in all things: see! I do all things:
see! I lift never mine hands off my works, nor ever shall,
without end: see!" To be honest, I think I love this cuz
there's so many explamation points! There's a kind of
urgancy here that really grabbed me. That...Like, that grab-you-
by-the-faceness is so...is so cool to me. Everything matters
so much!
J: ...
KD: Would you say devotion has like, a feeling? Not in any
poetic, wishy-washy sort of way. But like, would you say
devotion is a real, honest thing? Not like, something that
exlusively has lots of exclamation points, but something
you could have without being super annoying and insincere?
I get suspicious when people talk about devotion because
it always sounds like they're trying to get me to do
something I hadn't previously considered, something that's
not really substantial.
J: ...
KD: But it's a weird feeling, I don't really get that from
the devotion in Divine Love. It's not devotion, it's a
statement of a sort of fact. So for some reason I trust you
more.
J: ...
KD: Sorry. Back to the question: Did you like sharing those
moments with people?
J: ...
KD: Sharing is weird. I forget which work I've shared
with other people. Is that weird? On a certain level,
would you say that sharing doesn't matter?
J: ...
KD: To sort of jump back to the "see!" quote, looking
through your advice and your retelling of the shrewings,
there's this electric...kinetic kind of certainty in
your work that I really admire. Can I ask where this
certainty comes from?
J: ...
KD: I love this line in one of the later chapters: "One
time our Lord said: All things shall be well; and another
time he said: Thou shalt see thyself that all manner of
thing shall be well; and in these two sayings the soul took
sundry understanding." Like, that's the sort of certainty
I'm referring to. You acknowledge the complexity behind
"All shall be well," but you never deny that
"All shall be well." And earlier, when we were talking about
"simple perfection" this was the sort of line that came to
mind. I'm so compelled by the different "all shall be well"
understandings you discuss. It's so compelling in
its...in its apparent simplicity, but it's a deceptively
hard thing to get your head around.
J: ...
KD: I guess.
J: ...
KD: I'm not sure I completely understand your words, but
please know they're still very moving to read. Truly. Or
maybe just nice to read. Some days I wake up feeling
(and this is crazy stupid dramatic and I'm very aware) totally
torn apart.
J: ...
KD: Completely torn apart. Hahaha.
J: ...
KD: So it's nice to hear that things are going to be okay.
Even if the word itself, "okay," is just slush that no one
can rely on.
J: ...
KD: You'll be sad to hear there's no such thing as anchorites
anymore. Everyone just has to live their lives in the wide
world now.
J: ...
KD: How would you say society benefits from anchorites?
Should we bring them back?
J: ...
KD: My friend has said: "In my personal opinion I think
people would benefit from being walled up alive."
J: ...
KD: Sorry. "Walled up alive" is not the best way to put it.
J: ...
KD: It almost feels selfish to want a life like that because
that life would make it harder to contribute to the human race.
Or to be honest, to contribute to my family and friends (my
loved ones). But you contributed to the human race. You wrote
books people liked. Centuries later, I've taken comfort in the
little I've read. And people came to you for advice.
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: And I could be totally wrong.
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: Is it true that you wrote Divine Love after you
survived your deathbed? Like, you didn't
write it on your death bed, but afterwards.
J: ...
KD: Would it be alright if I asked you some questions
regarding that period of your life?
J: ...
KD: In Divine Love you say Jesus Christ appeared in your room
in the middle of fever. He had "red blood trickling
down from under his crown of thorns." Can I ask what he
sounded like? Like, did he have a normal voice?
J: ...
KD: I imagine this tiny brick room and a
little candle. On top of that fear of dying.
J: ...
KD: Was he in a corner? Or did he stand over your bed?
J: ...
KD: You mention that one of the gifts he gave you, one of
the shrewings, was the meditation of your own suffering,
which is a gift you equivilate with divine love. Can
you talk more about that?
J: ...
KD: I hope that doesn't sound judgy. I really like it
when people complicate something like love when it comes
to big figures like God. I truly don't believe something
like God would love the same way we do.
J: ...
KD: But I don't know much about stuff like that. So do
you have a better definition for...uh...for "God-love" I guess?
J: ...
KD: You also say you saw a "marvellous high mystery hid
in God" and you go on to say we'll only understand that
mystery when we're dead, when we've transformed in Heaven.
Can you elaborate on how this mystery appeared to you?
What made it marvellous? Besides the obvious.
J: ...
KD: How would you compare divine mystery to divine love,
or even to that simple, divine perfection we were talking
about earlier?
J: ...
KD: That might actually be one of the benefits of a
distraction-free life. Big mysteries might be easier to
enjoy when we're alone.
J: ...
KD: How would you say you...Erm...
J: ...
KD: Can I...
J: ...
KD: I guess I should mention that I sort of nearly...I
would definitely not say "nearly died." I'm sorry. It's not a
one-to-one scenario, but a few years ago I went in for a
surgery and had something like a prophetic dream beforehand.
J: ...
KD: This group of doctors (they were the cast of House MD)
cut open my back and all silently, collectively decided,
for no good reason, to just cut me completely in half with
scalpels. And obviously, the me on the table bled out and
died in my dream. But the me in the dream, who was watching
this all happen, lived. And she was the one who woke me up.
J: ...
KD: So I was really nervous I was going to die during my
surgery, even though there was, like, a 96% chance I wouldn't.
And I don't believe in God so it was hard to take comfort in
being protected or having somewhere to go afterwards.
J: ...
KD: But I remember during the drive to the hospital I kept
comforting myself by remembering that death was really easy.
That I didn't have to prep for it the way I was prepping
for the surgery and other stuff. I could just relax and
wait for it. And because I really needed a way to ease the
nerves, I also was able to sort of convince myself that
dying would be really exciting. I was a little excited to
die. Or like, see what would happen after I died.
J: ...
KD: You didn't die either. Was that strange? Obviously I
wasn't disappointed when I lived, but I felt that excitement
sort of leave me.
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: Does that make any sense?
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: Ahhh, I ran out of questions I'm sorry.
J: ...
KD: ...
J: ...
KD: Thank you for your time, Julian.
J: ...
J: ...
J: ...